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  1. #1
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    i760=same mistake made by universal remotes

    After countless months of anticipation, I finally got my hands on an i760. Excited as I registered it with my phone number, then poof. Frustrations followed by Dissapointment.

    I've already told my B2B rep to expect it back in the mail.

    Disclaimer: Before you read further, please note, I am a technology guy, I have used and programmed PDAs from Netwons, to IPAQs, and Blackberrys. DOS, Unix, Macs, and Windows. I have not installed the software for the i760, I have not downloaded any 'add on' tools that people will say I must have. I did go through the WM6 setups an options to get the device as close to what I would want as possible.

    Basically, a device like this should do the basics with minimal config and not trip over itself getting there.

    My summary, IMHO, the i760 has tried to combine into one device features from various 'worlds' (which is good), but also tried to maintain each's own historical UI. For instance, Windows has a standard UI (windows, with pull down menus, and that little close box [X], a Phone has another UI (the green and red buttons). The UIs are very different and when you simple add them all together, you get the i760. Then you have the camera with features that rival a digital SLR. IT'S A PHONE CAMERA, Keep it simple....and KBD without all the buttons, so that UI is compromised as well. So what you end up with is duplicated, redundant, confusing, inconsistant controls. Buttons that should do something, dont in the app your in, so you push another button and end up sending a video to your someone in Alaska.

    Other observations.
    When a window pops-up (from a phone call, system alert, wireless connection, etc) sometimes the close call button works to close it. Somtimes the cancel button works, sometimes its the left or right (...) buttins, or was it the [x] or the CLR button. For instance, cant see to easily close the camera or the "we've detected a network popup". While I'm on the camera, I love the still vs video option, but using the little icons on the camera viewfinder is very hard to tell which mode I'm in. Very nice they let you turn some of them off.

    The QWERTY KBD is OK..., but the slider does not quite get enough out of the way. Maybe the Tilt would solve that problem better. IMHO: Nothing beats a Blackberry 8703 keyboard.

    When I push the 'Talk' button, I seem to always open the slider. Maybe it just the way I hold it. Heaven help you try to answer the phone while doing something else. I probably have only caught 1 out of 20 calls. regular phone: Flip open, talk. i760 should be BIG pop-up (CALL FROM JOHN, PRESS SCREEN ANYWHERE)

    Does anyone else have a problem with the phone radio, turning itself off so you end up going through half the day amazed that no-one has called, just to find out that the phone radio is OFF. Also had the WiFi turn itself on, and drain my battery in about 2 hours.

    Try pressing the window close [x] with your finger. Its up in the very corner of the screen. I had to file my index finger nail into a point so I could use it as a stylus

    Really, Really hard to see if you have a message or missed a call. Little dinky multi-use single line on the main screen. Also that one line on the main screen which tells you that you missed a call, is used (via scrolling using my recently filed fingernail) to cycle through the various communication "in-boxes". It would be better if it a single pop-up said "You got stuff'" and allowed you to see all of the various message headers in a single list. My last smartphone was a BB 8703e and its 'inbox' showed email, SMS, missed calls and optionally, sent mail, and calls made. Easy to scroll through, easy to manage. Maybe there is a third party mod which has a combined inbox.

    The lighted buttons are best I've seen, BUT the lights seem to take approx 5 seconds to come on after opening the slider. It's like the lighted button circuit was sleeping and needed coffee before turning on. The lights should be like a refrigerator light. Door open - Lights On.

    Anyway... It's going back Not for me. maybe great for others.
    Personally, I am going back to a Blackberry. Of course Verzion (king of last years technology) does not have a BB Curve yet. So I must decide between another 8703e (no camera, little bit big, GREAT keyboard, and the thumbwheel) until sometime in '08 accordig to the rumor mill or switch to ATT to get a 8310 Curve (NO thumbwheel but has camera,WiFi, light-3.9 oz vs the 5.3 oz i760 and small for a BB, OK kdb, much better than the 8800 series).

    in conclusion, the i760 reminds me of when universal remotes tried to accomodate every electronic device you own. Great idea, but suddenly I can't adjust the volume. Key features (channel, volume, on-off) need to be 'in your face' on a complex device. For a smartphone its phone, messaging, etc. Or better yet have a UI like i'm seeing for he Voyager and the user configure the main screen with whatever 'top features' are needed. The i760 simply missed the mark.

    Thanks for reading my ramblings.

  2. #2
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    I've been using it about 3 weeks now, I agree with what you say above but i would say that living with the device for a while you will learn that in fact most of the key operations are in your face, you just need to figure out how to use them efficiently, for example, to make a call, just spell the name (like if you had T9 on the front keypad) or number and the phone will locate the person in your contact list...very swift for one handed dialing, no need to open contacts, open dialer or anything...
    Learning to use and optimize the two soft keys as well as the windows start key and to assign key programs to the menus is highly useful.
    Also in the wireless manager program...the big x on the top of the screen turns off all three wireless programs including the phone to turn them on/off individually you need to use the smaller x's on each wireless device area..
    I see your disclaimer that you have not added some of the very helpful 3rd party apps...while I agree that these apps should be standard components of WM6, they aren't so the the question is, do you load them and create a functional device or do you ignore them, claim the phone can't do what you like/want/need and send it back...
    I guess in the end its a personal choice.
    For what its worth though, with a bit of time, learning the device, and a couple of third party apps, all of your concerns could be addressed if you wanted to keep the phone.
    If not, by all means return it and wait for the next best thing
    Best of luck.

  3. #3
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    You are 100% correct. It is a very personal perference device. Having had other WM and PDA devices, its unfortunate, but its the add-on apps that make or break the overall usability. This can be seen on some of the other good posts in the 'customization' threads.

    You are also correct that with enough perserverance you can remember which buttons do what for each app.

    Its alot like Oysters. People who like them tell people who don't that after a while you'll learn to like them.

    For me, I don't like oysters and I do not want to spend to time. I find that the apps for BBs tend to be alot more consistant in their UI. Maybe since its a more closed OS, but the cost, is a smaller population of apps to pick from. Then again that is why I have a laptop.

    For me, my smartphone helpd me stay connected quickly without having to fireup the laptop. Even though WM has Word and Excel, I would not try to write a report on my i760 in Word. I'll take some notes for later insertion into a report. (Although I did write an Excel expense report tracker for my old WM IPAQ).

    For others it is their only mobile computing platform, and they need all the stuff. That's why we have choices. I just wish Verizon would stay current with the competition (aka Curve, xv6800, BlackjackII).

    Thanks for your thoughts and kind words.

  4. #4
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    To me, it sounds like a lot of the issues you have with the phone are purely user based....in other words, you simply don't know how to use the device....such as, why are you trying to press the [X] button with your finger when you could either just press the end call button, or the OK button?

    But aside from that, I have a 8830 and a 8130 (because yes, Verizon does have them despite what you may think) sitting at my house right now, and when I get up in the morning to go out, it's the i760 I grab to take with me due to all it's asskicking it dishes out on the competition.

  5. #5
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    Left a Treo 700w.
    Won't even think of going back.
    Wifi, BT Dialing, Auto Answer, more memory,......

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by tech_head View Post
    Left a Treo 700w.
    Won't even think of going back.
    Wifi, BT Dialing, Auto Answer, more memory,......
    Amen brother...

  7. #7
    Registered User mrpacs's Avatar
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    Sounds like OP is not familiar with WM.

    "Try pressing the window close [x] with your finger. Its up in the very corner of the screen. I had to file my index finger nail into a point so I could use it as a stylus"

    I programmed phone to close open app with 2 presses of center of D-Pad.

    My Radio does not turn itself off although I found that I did it once by mistake by pressing and holding the ? button - Sorry I can't remember which button!


    "I probably have only caught 1 out of 20 calls. regular phone: Flip open, talk. i760 should be BIG pop-up (CALL FROM JOHN, PRESS SCREEN ANYWHERE)"

    What if you don't want to answer the call and you "touch" the screen as you suggest?

  8. #8
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    holding the red button turns the phone radio off

  9. #9
    Registered User mrailing's Avatar
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    Even though you are technology savvy, I don't think you fully understand the Windows Mobile Operating System. If you are used to a Blackberry, then I would say that it's a big change for sure, as it's a totally different device and takes a bit of tweaking to use successfully. There are MANY people that don't use the device right out of the box, or try to do way too much with it. The Windows Mobile device is a miniature PC, basically put. It does certain things well out of the box, but to do more, you have to install additional software or tweak on it a bit, which is one of the biggest reasons that many of us choose this over a BlackBerry or other PDA device. We have the ability to tweak and install software of our choice.

    I am amazed at how many people expect it to do something one way, and yet someone else expects it to do something the other. Or when you get 1000 users complaining that it doesn't work this way, and then in the next device, the manufacturer changes it to be like those 1000 people complained, and now a whole new group of people want it back the other way. But this is why you have to tweak to make it work the way YOU want it to work.

    Everyone one of the OP problems can be solved with a little tweaking, more knowledge, or a few simple software applications. Most of what you are complaining about comes from simply not knowing the device. Some of which you complained about is easily overcome by simply reading the manual and understanding how the buttons work on the phone. Other things you want as features, others would hate, for example the "press anywhere on the screen to answer". I would HATE this, as I carry my phone in my pocket, and if I simply had to touch the screen, I would answer a call without even knowing it, and with the way I sign or "talk" to other cars while driving, well it wouldn't be pretty for other people to hear this....

    Sure there are MANY people, including very technology oriented people, that a Windows Mobile Device is most definitely not suited, but if you actually take the time to over come some of those issues, you can easily get a very functional and good working device. It amazes me how many people are so quick to just return it and toss it aside without taking the time to really learn what it can do. It's like me handing you a little pocket knife with a knife, saw, and bottle opener and you using it for a month, and then I hand you a Swiss Army Knife or a Leatherman. Sure it still has the knife, saw, and can opener, but it has so many more features, you just have to take the time to learn what and where they are, or how to attach other options to fix it or move the tools around.

    Since you are already set on moving back to the BB, I am not going to go through the 15 things that you could do to make the device work, as the BB will be the better device, but I am simply posting this in that if others come here to not be discouraged by one person's ramblings (from your own words), and to give it some time, read, discuss, and find the solutions to things you don't like or find annoying, or find out that you are holding the red end button down to long when ending a call and turning the phone radio off, or are doing something else to change a setting. Simply changing the way you hold the i760 can have an adverse affect on the way it works for you, it just takes a bit of learning to understand the device.

  10. #10
    Registered User Sleeve's Avatar
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    This seems to be a consistent theme. Users of other technology have noticed all the hype and attention in our forums prior to the release and assumed we must be waiting for something worth getting. Many of the posts over the first few weeks of the forum have talked about how to get back the technology lost, especially the side of fries Palm put next to their Windows Mobile burger.

    The bulk of us have used Windows Mobile in some form for years. We know its weaknesses, and we knew a lot of problems could be solved by this phone. Many actually have, and that is what accounts for the continuing solid support for the phone and our tolerance of an egregious bug like the Bluetooth problem. So we continue to generate curiousity and interest from users of other devices. But to think that you can simply pick this up and use it like a Blackberry or a Treo understates why it exists: to be something else, a choice, one that can be configured and enhanced in a myraid of ways or as I've said, 1000 right ways and exactly the right way most of us unique individuals want.

    Ironically, Apple releases the iPhone as a contradiction of their famous Macintosh commercial. Apple tells the users what is doubleplusgood, and it is the Windows Mobile user base running in with the sledgehammers to show the proles what they could really do with a smart phone. We've duplicated every user interface advancement but the landscape mercury switch (and I'm sure HTC is looking for a patent loophole), and it's up to the carriers to copy visual voicemail.

    I would never carry a Blackberry. Ever. I was asked to carry one for work once and had the privilege of a position where I could refuse. I consider it the corporate equivalent of a crew cut. I understand some people actually buy them without being forced to use them, but I don't understand why.

    Maybe if more former Blackberry users had Windows Mobile devices, and if more companies that use BES were willing to support BB Connect, we'd see a lot more third party software on WM that duplicates the good things about Blackberry. Right now, there's no market, so the move from a berry to an i760 is a distant one. One that may be uncomfortable to many more people than the OP.
    -s

  11. #11
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    Actually, I came from a line of Palm devices running Palm OS, and struggled with WM for a week. But now, I can't imagine ever going back. Palm OS was more stable, but it's just not as fun as my i760!

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sleeve View Post
    Ironically, Apple releases the iPhone as a contradiction of their famous Macintosh commercial. Apple tells the users what is doubleplusgood, and it is the Windows Mobile user base running in with the sledgehammers to show the proles what they could really do with a smart phone. We've duplicated every user interface advancement but the landscape mercury switch (and I'm sure HTC is looking for a patent loophole), and it's up to the carriers to copy visual voicemail.
    Perhaps I am twisted by my conversion to iPhone from i730 but I simply don't see the iPhone as a contradiction to the original mac commercial. It seems to be almost an identical situation except phone's instead of pc's. Here you have a smartphone market slowly plodding along with little innovation and then Apple drops the iPhone with it's UI, Full browser, visual voicmail, what what do you have soon after poor WinMo copies of the UI, talk of better browser for CE. Oh yeah and Vis Vm is the carriers fault and MS just didn't have the resources to push the issue but somehow Apple did, lol.

    To the contrary I say Apple showed WinMo users what could be done with a smartphone and now everyone is scrambling to copy it.

    You really don't think Apple threw another sledghammer only this time at the phone industry? I am sure Apple didn't change things at all and the Touch would have the same UI either way right.

    Maybe you where over simplifying but the iPhone does not have a mercury switch it is in fact a full 3axis accelerometer largely untapped atm. See Medallia Blog: Fun with the iPhone accelerometer for the potential once the SDK is available.

    Sorry I really like the idea of WinMo and third party apps and all that, but the instability of the platform was killing me. Win CE is 10 Years old and this is where its at? If Apple gets the SDK out in Feb. as they have said MS is really going to have to stop coming up with excuses for WinMo's shortcomings.

    Justin
    Last edited by Justin; 11-08-2007 at 07:12 PM.

  13. #13
    Registered User Sleeve's Avatar
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    Dammit, I knew I smelled soy milk. I should have known one of the shiny happys would have gone after the paragraph I could have easily dropped from my post.
    -s

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justin View Post
    words
    You know, you're right.. they sure did show what could be done with a smartphone. They showed what could be done to antagonize their user base and force them to only use the software that came with the phone, for fear of having a brick.

    First, it was expensive, then they suddenly reduce the price $200 which angers all the early adopters, they lock the phone into AT&T usage only and on the slow EDGE network, they brick any phone which dares to circumvent the AT&T lock or even *gasp* install 3rd party software. Now you can't buy the thing with cash or even Apple's own gift certificates - credit card only.

    The UI is innovative, I'll give it that. And I can see where people who love iPod's would naturally like having this. On the surface it is a very cool device. But you darn sure better love the UI and the software that comes native on the phone - because Apple is going to make sure that every single user is herded in the direction they want them to go. Apple knows best, indeed.

    Sleeve got it dead on. I submit to you, sir, that this is a direct opposite of Apple's original vision in the 1984 commercial. That was about BREAKING the mold. Any good will I have in my heart towards Apple for that UI is broken by all of the above atrocities.

    I will now go back to my WM device. It may not be as flashy, but I can install whatever I want on it, I can pay cash for it, I have a usable corporate email client, and a keyboard I can type on without smudging up the screen.

  15. #15
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    Just for fun, here's Maddox's article on the iPhone

    The iPhone is a piece of ****, and so is your face.

  16. #16
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    i've only had my 760 for a week now, most of which i spent working on setting it up just the way i wanted, while at times wanting to pull out every last hair on my head, but i digress...i could not be happier. i am admittedly not what you would call technologically savvy, but with the help of this forum, and a lot of patience, i have created the most perfectly configured mobile device i've ever owned...for me. and i guess that's just it. my device would look nothing like yours, or his, or hers, etc. some people simply don't enjoy the challenge of getting it just right for them. my girlfriend is one of those. i see a voyager in her future. she doesn't want to have to work on her phone. a lot of people don't, but for those of us who do, it is so worth it. i'm not limited by proprietary apps/features...if i don't like something, or something better or more functional comes around, i just upgrade it. i love the freedom of it. don't get me wrong, i think the iphone is gorgeous, innovative, and probably a very satisfying device for its owners. quite frankly, i tend to use my device more in the way the iphone is intended (music, games, surfing, etc), but i also use a lot of the more business style windows apps, plus i really prefer a real keyboard to a virtual one (too many mis-types especially in the sun). i would recommend this phone to anyone...yes over the iphone and even the upcoming 6800 (dear dialpad, you rule). i'm not trying to change your mind, because i recognize that this phone, while perfect for me, might not be for you. i would tell you to give it a test drive, since you're not obligated to keep it...might change your life...or maybe just your mind. either way, good luck on your next device, whatever you choose.

  17. #17
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    Just left a 700P - I'm in heaven...this Phone/PDA Rocks!

  18. #18
    Registered User GadgetNut's Avatar
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    Well, I am on both sides of the camp here. I can see the OP comments and how many people who may be enticed by the look, size and functionality of the phone may be confused when they first get it. The manual does make pretty easy work of setting it up though.

    Having had the 730 for over 2 years prior to getting the 760, I am VERY happy with the phone. I never loaded any programs to enhance the 730's functionality before but am glad I have done so with this one.

    What I find interesting is that Microsoft hasn't looked at the programs that people seem to be purchasing and implemented them into the OS. I guess they don't get a whole lot of revenue from the OS sales but the licensing??? I'm not exactly sure but I do think that they could make the phone part of the software more inclusive of some of the basic phone features.

    That being said - I've learned a ton from this forum and really like my 760. I do understand the simplicity and usefulness of the iPhone and many on this board (myself included) do look for ways to emulate some of the groundbreaking features. That's the great thing about these developments!

    Easier out of the box usefulness and better native phone settings(i.e message indicators, etc) would be great.

    I can understand a tech person being a bit frustrated with first time use of this phone but also excited about everything you can do with it!

    Just my $.02

    Jay
    If it ain't broke. . . break it!!

  19. #19
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    Me? I just left the iphone for my i760! Yes, it's true. As I am drying the tears from my eyes from crying about having to pay the $175 termination fee to AT&T (yes, I have to pay them for their lousy voice quality, lousy coverage in San Diego, and slower-than-dirt EDGE-based internet), I am starting to see more clearly why I left the iphone for the i760. In three words-- I LOVE IT. I have to agree with the posts of mrailing, ChrisKlinck, and Sleeve...it's really up to the user. I love being able to configure (or change) what I don't like about the included OS features by supplementing with 3rd party apps. For me, the iphone's inability to use a landscape keyboard in anything but the browser was the nail in the coffin...updates are too few and far between, and when we get one, it only adds features meant to line Apples pockets (Wifi itunes store?). The iPhone is a consumer gadget, at best. For people that really need connectivity and office/business functionality, WM6 devices are definitely the better option....

    ps. I forgot to mention the newfound ability to tether my i760 to my laptop and utilize the EVDO service I am already paying for, without having to pay Verizon for the priviledge of doing so! (PDAnet) Love it!

  20. #20
    Registered User Dorf's Avatar
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    Is a pure touch screen like the iPhone really groundbreaking if it takes longer to do things that take mere seconds on the i760?

    With the i760 I can be making a phone call, starting a text message or email in like 2 seconds all with my thumb. I've tried some of those iPhone clones, but I don't see the advantage, when I can use the dialpad to initiate actions super fast!

    Form should follow function... not the other way around.

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